Joanne Fleisher | Lavender Visions

My Journey Through Two Lives

I had to write Living Two Lives: Married to a Man & in Love with a Woman. I didn’t want other women to face what I did without help from someone who could speak from her own experience. In 1979, when I realized I was in a marriage that wasn’t fulfilling my needs and desires, I was terrified. I thought I was straight. I’d only been with men and had never felt attracted to women before. Living in the suburbs, I was married to a good husband and raising two children. Despite the fact that I had fallen in love with a woman, I felt like nothing had changed inside me. I didn’t suddenly believe I was a lesbian.

Fortunately, I was resourceful and found ways to help myself through the painful process of exploring my sexuality and priorities with guidance from various teachers. My teachers included some who were professionally trained and others, who were mere acquaintances who crossed my path. I pursued the latter because they were either bisexual or lesbian-identified and were open to answering my desperately curious inquiries. Access to information is different today, but creating a new life will always be upending and require many of the same supports I needed.

When I completed my writing, I was filled with doubts about how the book would be received. I worried that I had written a self-help book that didn’t provide specific answers. Yet, I knew what questions to ask and some part of me knew that this is what good guidance is. True wisdom has to come from each individual, from inside herself. Our guides are those who can point us in a direction, ask the important questions, and help us to reach inside ourselves where our own answers

lie. Individual circumstances may be similar, but our answers are unique to each person.

Writing Living Two Lives helped me to clarify the process that most women follow, of course with many variations. Even the amount of time it takes to define the best path forward can take anywhere from 6 months to 6 years. My writing began about 25 years after my initial questioning. By then, I had developed my therapy profession and had the value of hindsight along with professional expertise.

I started writing from the beginning of my own journey. After revealing the affair to my husband, I began working with a therapist. I couldn’t put my finger on why I had felt so restless and bored in my marriage or why I had gotten myself involved in an affair. I told my therapist that the only things missing from my marriage were good sex and a feeling of intimacy. My therapist smiled and let me know that these may be the two most important aspects of a happy relationship. I couldn’t handle the roller coaster of emotions that I was feeling, but knew that it was better than the numbness I had experienced prior to the affair. I had been blocking my loneliness and feelings of disconnection. I needed to face my hidden feelings. It was the key to feeling alive.

Inspired by her own personal experience – Fleisher authors book about married women who love women

by Grant Moser, Chestnut Hill Local January 18, 2013

When Chestnut Hill therapist Joanne Fleischer was growing up, gay issues were hidden in our culture. She didn’t know anyone who was gay, it wasn’t part of the conversation when it came to sexuality, and she went along with everyone else in being straight. “When other girls were having crushes on boys, I went along that route. Being gay wasn’t something that presented itself to me,” she explained.

However, in 1978 she found herself attracted to another woman. The problem was that she was married with two children and living in the suburbs. She had a three-month affair with the woman.

Read more…

Married To a Man and In Love With a Woman

Huffington Post 12/26/2012

In my experience, New Year’s resolutions are rarely life-changing. On the other hand, the despair of my most difficult life crisis — the decision to leave my husband of 12 years for another woman — changed my life forever, and I couldn’t have done it without some very powerful and sustaining resolutions. It was 1979, the year that Donna Summer topped the charts with “Hot Stuff,” and I had fallen in love with a close female friend, had an extramarital affair, lied about it and broken my marriage vows.

I felt like a stranger to myself. I discovered that I was capable of behaviors that were “not me.” For the 12 years of my marriage, I had feared that there was something

Read more…


Living Two Lives Second Edition
Married to a Man & In Love with a Woman
by Joanne Fleisher

A guide for married women awakening to their attraction to other women.

Oprah Examines the Coming Out Process for Married Women

by Suzanne Corson, October 3, 2006

Oprah Winfrey received an email from a woman, married to a man for twenty-five years, who confessed to having a lesbian affair which lasted nearly three years. She explained that she loved her husband but was not in love with him and said she was bitter that she’d probably stay trapped in her passionless marriage for the rest of her life. Thus began the production of an episode for The Oprah Winfrey Show on “Wives Who Confess They are Gay.”

Queer married men have been addressed on Oprah in the past: In April 2004, a show about men living on the “down low” aired, while in September of this year, former New Jersey Governor James McGreevey appeared on the show to discuss “His Gay Sex Scandal.” On today’s show, women had a chance to tell their stories.

Once the producers began conducting research for the show–including interviews with more than one hundred women–they kept hearing the name Joanne Fleisher. Fleisher has a popular website, Lavender Visions, which serves as a resource for women questioning their sexuality. In late 2005, Joanne published her book Living Two Lives: A Married Women’s Guide to Loving Women (Alyson Books).

Fleisher, a therapist in the Philadelphia area, received a phone call from an Oprah Winfrey Show producer asking for assistance in finding married women who are lesbians. Fleisher explained that they would have difficulty finding women currently married to men who would be willing to appear on TV if they’re in the middle of figuring out their sexuality. But she did agree to post the query on her website’s message board and offered to send them a copy of her book.

As the email responses started coming in to Fleisher, she forwarded them to the show’s producers. A few days later, she received another call asking if she had ever been interviewed on TV. She had, and sent the Oprah producers a copy of the tape. Shortly thereafter, Fleisher was on a plane headed toward Chicago to serve as the “expert” for the Oprah married lesbians episode.

Prior to her departure, Fleisher had been advised not to appear on the show by some acquaintances who were displeased with the way in which Oprah had handled the “Down Low” episode. Fleisher, who had not seen that show, felt strongly that it was important for her to go so that she might reach isolated women viewers who may be unaware of the resources available to them.

Fleisher herself knew that isolation. In 1979, while living with her husband of twelve years and their two children in the suburbs, her world changed when she found herself in love with another woman. She found few resources for the pain, fear, and confusion she was experiencing.

About four months after she left her husband, when she was 34, she met the woman who would become her long-term partner. Fleisher’s daughters were seven and nine at the time. Her partner, with whom Fleisher has been for 28 years, helped raise the girls. Fleisher’s ex-husband, who had shared custody, later remarried. They have a friendly relationship now, though there was a great deal of pain at the time of their divorce.

As part of Fleisher’s life change, she became a licensed clinical social work specializing in women’s issues and lesbian and gay concerns. Her practice has grown to include groups, weekend workshops, and even telephone support groups for women outside the Philadelphia area. She is also moderator of an online Q&A message board for heterosexually married lesbians.

Fleisher spoke to after the taping of the Oprah episode, both before and after the episode had aired. She felt that Oprah herself was very open to hearing what others had to say and that the audience, too, was very engaged and respectful. Fleisher also wasn’t surprised, since this was, after all, a talk show for television, that some dramatic elements were emphasized and that the women selected to speak were all conventionally attractive.

“They plucked a small element from the community, a very intriguing element, but a small one. The women were all interesting and nice to look at, though not a representative cross-section,” Fleisher remarked.

One couple in particular, Nikki and Carole, were both attractive in a model-like way, even joking together about sharing the same lipstick color. They both spoke about how the world stopped when they first saw each other – instant attraction. Fleisher felt that their inclusion was useful because it helped to show the excitement of discovering an attraction to another woman. And the in-home tape of Nikki and Carole revealed the playfulness of their relationship. “They helped make a lesbian relationship more real in some ways, even if neither of them looks like the average lesbian, or even the average woman,” Fleisher said.

One of the more dramatic elements, emphasized in the commercials for the show prior to its airing, was something Oprah said she’d “never heard of before”: Joe, the ex-husband of Chris, the first woman Oprah interviewed, came out as gay a few years after Chris came out as a lesbian. Oprah interviewed both of them, their current same-sex partners, and one of their teenaged-sons, Alex, 14.

Alex said he was proud of both of his parents for being out, and feels that he’s very lucky to have four loving parents. Oprah was encouraging and supportive of Alex, saying that 14 was one of her hardest years, and she knows how terrible other kids can be.

Oprah then introduced Joanne Fleisher as someone who has “counseled hundreds of married women who are attracted to other women.” She asked Fleisher how common it was for married women to come out as lesbian, was it more common now because homosexuality is a bit more accepted in society. Fleisher replied that it’s certainly more visible now. She stressed the role of the Internet, that woman have access to information about sexuality in ways they didn’t in the past. Fleisher’s website has been online for nearly ten years.

Several times during the broadcast, Oprah remarked that from everything she’d read and heard from gay friends, people “always know they’re gay,” though they may sometimes suppress it. Fleisher said that’s not always the case, and pointed out that some of Oprah’s interviewees said they didn’t know until they were older. She explained that some women don’t get to know their true sexuality until they get to know themselves better, as they mature.

It’s interesting that Oprah, who outwardly is very comfortable around lesbians and gays and somewhat knowledgeable about LGBT issues, says that she never knew there was such a thing as the Kinsey scale. She says she knew there was a range of sexuality but not that there was an actual measure. (How this got past her, even after the recent Liam Neeson film Kinsey was released, is curious.)

What’s even more curious is that Oprah can accept that there’s a continuum of sexuality but finds it harder to believe that there can likewise be a continuum of coming out experiences – with some folks knowing and accepting their sexuality from early on, others who had an idea early on but suppressed it for a variety of reasons, to those who truly did not have a clue until they happened to fall for someone of the same sex.

One thing I personally find annoying is Oprah’s seeming refusal to use the word lesbian unless she’s reading a direct quote from an email or book. She consistently uses gay even if the woman speaking with her consistently uses lesbian. True, not every woman-loving-woman embraces that word, but when someone does, generally it’s respectful to use the term someone claims for themselves.

Bisexuality was touched on briefly, as when Jo-Ann and John shared their story. John told Oprah that he always knew Jo-Ann had “a bit of bisexuality in her,” because when they were first dating, she told him that she’d been attracted to women. Apparently none of the women who appeared on the show today currently self-identify as bisexual.

And I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised that no one mentioned polyamory. Nikki said she thought she had three choices: stay in her marriage and be unhappy; stay in her marriage and have affairs with women; or leave her marriage. For some women, especially women who identify more as bisexual, a fourth option could be to stay in the marriage but make the transition to a polyamorous relationship. Perhaps in a future episode Oprah can take on that topic.

Fleisher checked in with us after viewing the show today, and said that she was pleased that the producers retained as much content as they did. One of the three segments featuring her input was not aired, but Fleisher wasn’t disappointed because she felt that it wouldn’t have added much to that particular discussion.

She’s very pleased that they not only mentioned her book, Living Two Lives, but also showed its cover. Oprah referred to passages from the book when speaking with Fleisher during the show, appearing to have read at least some of it. That’s great news for Fleisher and her publisher, Alyson; Oprah’s power to sell books is legendary.

Overall, Fleisher has good feelings about the whole Oprah experience and the resulting show. “It was interesting, and hopefully there will be positive things coming from the show.”

When we spoke prior to the airing of the final, edited show, Fleisher mentioned being impressed with the input from the audience members, especially a woman, who is a radio announcer, who told her own moving coming out story. None of the interplay with the audience was included in the final episode, which is a shame. Especially considering that some of the audience members telling their stories were women of color, while all but one of the participants in the show that aired were white. Hopefully some of that content may be available in the future on in the “After the Show” feature.

During the show, Nikki expressed her hope that women who are in situations similar to her own will hear that they’re not alone, and that there are resources and support available–including Joanne Fleisher’s website and book.

Nikki also said that staying in your marriage when it doesn’t feel right doesn’t do anybody any favors. She cautioned, “You’re not giving your full self to your husband or to yourself.”

Authenticity was certainly a theme of this show. Oprah spoke to some of the husbands about their reactions when their wives came out – hurt, surprise, grief – and seemed surprised that they didn’t hold lingering grudges. Rather, they all expressed the importance of their wives ultimately being true to themselves.

Oprah’s final word: “Whatever your secret, live your own truth; life is too short.”

Originally published, October, 2006

Sex: Brokeback Marriage

You’re a happily married wife and mother when suddenly you find yourself attracted to … another woman? It happens more often than you think, which is why one Chestnut Hill therapist is busier than ever

By Robyn Post

AS SHE HEADED east on the Schuylkill, Dana* couldn’t stop her hands from shaking on the wheel. I can’t afford a setback, she thought. Every step forward had been such a huge undertaking. She flipped on the car radio to calm herself. George Michael’s baritone was crooning: “I gotta have faith, faith, faith…” Thanks, God, you’re really having fun with me here. Dana hadn’t told a soul where she was going, and navigating the Expressway on a dark Friday night made it feel like a secret mission.

The journey had begun five years earlier, after Dana turned 40. She found herself feeling strangely attracted to a female co-worker at the store she managed. The way they laughed so easily together, the way the woman affectionately touched Dana as she talked, flooded her with strange sensations. What is wrong with me? she thought. Am I crazy? I love my husband. I love my kids. I love my life. What is this? She’d never looked at a woman that way. She’d married a man she was madly in love with – a law-enforcement officer who had brought her breakfast in bed every day of their 15-year marriage. They’d had kids, bought the house of their dreams – a three-bedroom colonial on a peaceful tree-lined street in Yardley – joined a Catholic church, attended PTA meetings, and fallen neatly into the framework of their small community.

Dana never told her husband about her Sapphic attraction. Instead, she quit her job and made an appointment with him for marriage counseling, convinced she was just missing their earlier intimacy and passion. He worked for the city by day; she sometimes logged 70 hours a week working nights to cover private-school tuition for their two boys, who were then eight and 10. After some joint counseling, she suppressed her feelings for her co-worker and went on with her life.

Two years later, Dana met another woman at work whose presence hit her so powerfully that she could no longer deny something was happening. The two talked in the car for hours after long shifts. One day the woman – a lesbian, it turned out – stole a long, sensuous kiss in the bathroom. “I couldn’t move. I couldn’t speak,” Dana says, her blue eyes widening. The electricity consumed her. “We started meeting in broad daylight in parking lots, getting half-naked in the car in the community where we both lived and worked. We were willing to risk everything for those stolen moments.”

The affair infused her with new life. Being with a woman, this woman, felt more right than anything she’d ever experienced. But it was also killing her. For a year, she hid the affair from everyone. Her girlfriend came over often, but it appeared the two were just friends. Finally, wracked with shame and guilt, Dana left her husband and moved in with a friend. A month later, on a cold February day, she sat her husband down and told him the truth: She was in love with a woman.

Fast-forward to last spring. The path hadn’t eased with time; instead, Dana felt the ground crumbling beneath her. Where to turn? No one in her straight world would understand, and she didn’t fit into the lesbian world, either. Late one night in May, surfing the Internet for any shred of help, she found a 2006 Oprah show called “Wives Confess They Are Gay.” Oprah’s expert was a Philadelphia therapist named Joanne Fleisher. Dana anxiously tapped off an e-mail, and received a phone call the next day. Fleisher suggested she come to a weekend workshop in Center City for married women who love women.

Now, as Dana watched the Philly skyline looming larger, she wondered if she was doing the right thing.

FLEISHER, A LICENSED therapist in Chestnut Hill and author of Living Two Lives: Married to a Man and in Love With a Woman, knows the pain of women like Dana who’ve tied the knot, procreated, built lives with their families, then awakened to a same-sex attraction they can’t ignore. It happens more than most people realize, for reasons both cultural and biological (more on that in a minute). But it’s a subculture so secretive, and often – solitary – these are mothers, the nurturers and protectors of families, after all – that you likely wouldn’t know about it unless it happened to you.

It happened to Fleisher in 1978, after 11 years of marriage and two children. She was “extremely straight,” she says, when out of the blue, she fell for a woman at work. After leaving her husband and digging herself out of the confusion and depression (“There was nowhere to turn in the ’70s”), Fleisher got licensed in social work and vowed to help women like herself. Ten years ago, she was invited to run a website message board called “Ask Joanne,” for married women coming out of the closet. From the posted questions and answers, her book was born. Then, in October of 2006, the Oprah show found Fleisher online and invited her to be an expert on a show about gay wives. Since her appearance, which aired three times, Fleisher – a pretty, soft-spoken 64-year-old with salt-and-pepper hair and kind eyes – has been so inundated with calls, she’s had to farm out work. She’s taken on clients from as far away as Egypt, Iceland and China, and as off the beaten path as Arkansas backcountry. The registered users on her “Ask Joanne” message board number about 3,500. And her support groups and weekend workshops are consistently full.

For the thousands of women Fleisher has encountered, it happens one of four ways. For some, like Dana, it’s “Whoa, what the hell am I feeling for Amy?” Some were always attracted to women, but felt coming out wasn’t an option. Others ignored fleeting feelings until something awakened them. Still others are shocked, but in thinking back to when they were younger, they realize there were clues.

Culturally, this makes sense. For millennia, women have fallen in line with social expectations; they’re trained from birth to get a man to the altar, reproduce, live happily ever after. The problem is, this isn’t entirely in sync with a woman’s biology. “While men know their sexuality early on, women are late bloomers,” says Eli Coleman, head of the human sexuality program at the University of Minnesota Medical School. “A woman awakens to her own needs and her sexuality around her 30s or 40s” – smack in the middle of building her life. At first blush, the timing may appear hormonal, but no studies point to that.

As if women weren’t complicated enough, there’s another perplexing element: A woman’s libido can shift back and forth between genders, based on emotions and situations, says Lisa Diamond, a psychology professor at the University of Utah and the author of Sexual Fluidity: Understanding Women’s Love and Desire. This confirms Kinsey’s research 60 years ago that showed orientation isn’t black-and-white, either/or. Human sexuality, he said, forms a continuum, and the sooner we learn that, the better we’ll understand ourselves. This reality is only recently coming to light, however; for decades, subsequent researchers threw out responses that didn’t fall at either end of the Kinsey scale (0 being straight, 6 being gay), which defeated Kinsey’s point in creating in.

“It doesn’t mean women are bisexual,” Diamond cautions. Rather, it means they can respond to emotions over gender. A woman can be attracted to another woman without being hot for females in general. One potential reason – based on animal studies – is that certain brain circuits that mediate emotional bonding alsoinfluence arousal, and women may have more of these love-sexuality circuits than men. Diamond has known die-hard lesbians to jump to the other team in the right circumstances, too – think Anne Heche. None of this is to say one’s sexuality is a choice. Ample scientific evidence proves it’s something we have no control over.

Going back to Dana: While she felt as if her sexuality changed mid-life, it’s a variable that exists within a woman from the beginning, “but is irrelevant to your day-to-day life until a really influential relationship with one particular woman triggers it,” says Diamond.

So, then, are women who find themselves married and attracted to women actually lesbians? Most women have an inherent preference, Fleisher insists, though it may not be clear immediately. “It’s not like ‘Aha, now I’m a lesbian,'” she says. “I didn’t know what I was for a while. If I went to a lesbian event, I felt like a closeted heterosexual. If I went to a PTA meeting, I felt like a closeted something else.” The only thing Fleisher knew was that she’d “experienced something so dramatically better, I could never be with a man again.” This sentiment is echoed repeatedly on Fleisher’s message board.

In researching this story, I interviewed eight local, suburban mothers- who responded to a posting on Fleisher’s message board. Of the five who have come out of the closet, four are struggling; one is happy with her situation. One came out to her husband and is staying with him for now. One is remaining in the closet; her husband agreed to let her have a girlfriend. (She continues to have sex with him, too.) One is hiding behind her soccer-mom life, dating a woman secretly. The experiences varied greatly, but all the women said this: The sex is off the charts, like nothing you can experience with a man. “It’s mind-blowing,” said a soccer mom from West Chester.

The reason, according to Fleisher, is the depth of intimacy women are capable of sharing. “It can be as powerful as an addictive drug,” she says. “Women tend to be more intuitive, nurturing, in tune with and willing to share feelings. Imagine these qualities free-flowing back and forth. Now add to that someone who can navigate your body almost as well as you can.” It’s a heady combo, she says.

WHEN DANA TOLD her husband, he was devastated. Had everything been a lie? He wanted to know. No, she explained – she still loved him, the kids, and their old life, but she could never go back. Her boys took it surprisingly well, though the youngest is angry with her for leaving his father. For months, Dana vacillated between returning home to her family (she and her husband agreed not to uproot the boys) and trying to live an honest life. She chose the latter, but hasn’t filed for divorce. “The most excruciating part is feeling like I’m a terrible mom,” she says. “A divorce is hard enough. Then you add this element. How much damage am I going to do?”

It’s an issue Fleisher sees repeatedly. Women tend to put their families’ needs first, and feel selfish if they don’t. But she tells her clients: “When you’re being your true self, when you’re feeling fulfilled, everyone benefits. You’re a better parent, partner, friend.”

Considering the complex issues and the number of gay, married women out there, the conspicuous lack of support for them – outside of Fleisher – is a mystery. Ample support groups exist for married gay men, and unlike women, men avoid support groups like the plague. It may be that in the interest of protecting their families, mothers don’t go looking – except late at night, on a secure computer, when everyone’s asleep.

If they’re lucky, they find Fleisher’s site,, or her Internet message board, featuring links to the day’s discussions: “How do you know?” “When to tell H [husband]?” “Married and scared to lose my children” – a sad reality in some places. “Are you staying in a marriage because of financial security?” One can pore over the personal stories and find solace, advice, camaraderie. Those who are “stuck” speak of spiraling depression. Those who’ve left mourn the loss of former lives and dreams. They discuss relationships, the logistics of female orgasm, and not being readily accepted into the lesbian community, where they’re seen as married women out for a fling. Fleisher’s name pops up frequently: “Thank God for Joanne.” “Check with Joanne.” “Joanne’s book says…”

ON THE SECOND floor of a building on Walnut Street, the women eyed each other nervously. No familiar faces, at least. Dana, a petite blonde with straight, shoulder-length hair, was relieved to see that the women looked just like her. Like women you’d see at the PTA. With nice clothes, jewelry, makeup. Not like lesbians. Fleisher had had them sign confidentiality agreements when they walked in. She made them feel safe. The 26 women sat in a circle, and took turns introducing themselves. A 35-year-old sailing instructor stood up. “I’m married with two kids, and I had no idea it could happen. I fell in love with a friend. Then, years later, it happened again.” In her tight-knit bedroom community, this would never fly. Her eyes welled up. “It’s the first time I’ve said it out loud.”

The rest of the women were teachers, medical professionals, hospitality managers, a prosecutor, and three therapists, from all over the country, ranging from their late 20s to late 50s. Their stories differed a little: One couldn’t leave her husband for economic reasons; one was separated but hadn’t come out; several had just come out; some were in the early stages of discovery; some couldn’t imagine ever leaving their husbands; some had been dumped after leaving their husbands. All knew the same pain. A half-hour into the weekend workshop, they’d bonded through tears and hugs. “We were all carrying this alone, thinking something was wrong with us. It was so freeing,” Dana says.

By the end of the first day, which they spent thinking, writing, meditating, and listening to the advice given by Fleisher and two other counselors, the women were drained. They had dinner and talked some more. Then they stopped at Sisters, marking Dana’s first visit to a lesbian club.

The final exercise of the weekend was to write a letter from your future self. The articulate, well-dressed California prosecutor stood up first.

“Please get me out of this. Please make it end,” she cried, initiating a sobfest. “We know what you’re feeling,” one woman offered. “Like it’s way too much to bear.”

Driving home on Sunday afternoon, Dana realized she’d come pretty far. Before the workshop, she’d sunk to her lowest place, from feeling too much to feeling nothing. Numb. The workshop changed her life. She’d made 25 new friends. (They’re all still in touch.) And she could face herself again. She wasn’t a bad mom. And Fleisher inspired her. She’s decided to go back to school for a master’s in social work and sink the rest of her time into being the best mom she can. She doesn’t know much else. “It’s like you’ve planned and planned for Italy, and you were taken to China,” she says, “and you realize it’s a beautiful place, but you don’t know how to dress, or speak the language, or where to go once you get there.”

Originally published in Philadelphia magazine, December 2009